Succession Planning with Jenna Hauss

Trent Stamp:
Welcome to How We Run, a podcast where we examine how nonprofits become successful. I’m Trent Stamp, CEO of The Eisner Foundation.

Julie Lacouture:
And I’m Julie Lacouture, founder of Good Ways, Inc.
In this episode, we’re joined by Jenna Hauss, the president and CEO of ONEgeneration. Jenna tells us the story of how she started at the organization as an intern, and then recently took on the president and CEO role, taking over from a long-standing leader.

Trent Stamp:
Are you recording?

Julie Lacouture:
No, this is all off the record. Tell me what you really think.

Trent Stamp:
Oh my God.

Julie Lacouture:
Trent, today we’re talking about succession planning with the Jenna Hauss from ONEgeneration.

Trent Stamp:
I’m obsessed with succession planning, because it’s way more complicated than people think it is. This isn’t taking the job where you’re the pizza delivery person at Domino’s, or something where you just have to step in and do what the previous person did. But these organizations are really tied up in people’s personalities. They’re tied up in people’s leadership styles, and anytime you ascend to the top of an organization and you follow somebody who was good at their job, it’s complicated. And obviously, you need a leader who creates a path that makes it easier for you to do that.
But you also then need the person who has the courage of their own conviction to step in and say, “I’m going to do it this way, with all due respect to my predecessor, because I do think that this is a better way, but it’s not an indictment of the previous person in any way whatsoever.” And then you have to deal with the personalities involved and the people who were loyal to the original leader. It’s just complicated. It’s not as easy as people make it out to seem as, “Oh, we have a new leader,” and they’ll just take over and hit the ground running.

Julie Lacouture:
Yeah. Well, I feel like there’s a couple of different ways organizations approach succession planning. So there’s the one of just being totally surprised that you need to find a new leader, and that is sometimes filled with an interim director and then a search happening at the same time. Then you got an organization that maybe can plan a little bit more ahead, which is what ONEgeneration did. Do you see any other types of succession planning?

Trent Stamp:
Yeah, there’s that model of, and ONEgeneration did this to some extent, but there’s the… When you’re planning ahead to some extent, you find people break it down into two different ways, which one being the “I’m leaving on October 1st, it’s all yours on October 1st”. And then there’s the ones where people say, “I’m leaving on October 1st, but why don’t we share the job for three or four months before that”, so that you can really hand it over to them in any one particular way.

Julie Lacouture:
I feel like it might seem like that latter one is the way to go, but I can also see it being limiting too, to the person coming in. Pros and cons with those?

Trent Stamp:
I don’t like the second one myself. Personally, the idea of we kind of work together in some way or another, I just don’t think it works. I do like it when someone brings the person in and trains them and confers with them and talks about what they’re seeing and that type of thing, so that the person is better prepared when the time comes. But, I just don’t think the “we’ll work together” kind of situation works for the most part, because people get confused. Your staff doesn’t know what to do. You as the new executive director doesn’t want to step on the toes of the person that’s still doing the job. The executive director that’s doing the job doesn’t know how much power to give to you or whatever.
So I think, anytime you can do some planning, you can do some training, you can get the culture introduced to the person, but not an overlap or shared power structure, I think is the better way to do it. And then, “Here’s the job. It’s yours. I’ll be available if you have questions, but I’m not going to be bothering you on a day to day basis.”

Julie Lacouture:
Can you see it [inaudible 00:03:52] taking over from a founder, and then taking over from just another executive director?

Trent Stamp:
Yeah, of course. So much of this nonprofit succession planning and management is just tied up in these cult of personalities. And I do think that anytime you have a founder, there’s too much there, in terms of, “This is the way I wanted it done. This is way I created it,” and it just becomes harder when you want to make changes for the staff that were there from the very beginning. We all want to replace the person who replaces the founder. That’s the way to go. But it’s just so hard when it’s all tied up in “this is the way we’ve always done it” for you to find your own road and figure out how best to do it.

Julie Lacouture:
Yeah. That’s interesting. I’ve seen a couple of organizations have a founder retire and then they put the founder on the board, and it’s really hard to be that person that comes in and then to have to manage the board and then manage the person that did your job before you. That’s tough.

Trent Stamp:
Yeah. I don’t like it. I prefer a clean break. You can come back in a couple of years if you want, if you’re the founder and you’re leaving for greener pastures in some way or another. But let the person have the runway for a little while, without them having to look over their shoulder, or more importantly, without them having to worry that other employees are looking over the shoulder to say, “That’s not the way we do it around here. That’s not the way she did it.” So I think you have to have the security to just drop the mic and walk away. That’s what I did when I was at Charity Navigator.
When I started Charity Navigator, when I left to come to The Eisner Foundation, they asked me to be on the board. I just said no, because I love the organization, I helped found the organization, or I just didn’t feel like the person who took the job needed to have me sitting there, in any way whatsoever, looking at them or her like, “That’s not the way I did it.”

Julie Lacouture:
I mean, it wasn’t like you couldn’t be reached by email.

Trent Stamp:
I wanted to be reached on technical things. I didn’t want to be reached on philosophical things. I didn’t want to be reached on policy things. If you don’t understand how to open up the database, call me. I’ll be happy to help. But if you want to know how to broaden your constituency in some way or another, that’s not my place to tell you that. You should be trying to figure that out on your own with your current board. And I just didn’t want to be looming in any way whatsoever with my successor. So I walked cleanly, and then came back 10 years later, a little bit, to meet with them and talk to them and consult a little bit. There were three leaders by then that had come through, and so I knew that I was not casting much of a shadow or getting in the way for the person that had taken my position.

Julie Lacouture:
Yeah. So you had the benefit of watching ONEgeneration transition happen. What do you think that they did really well, that we should listen to in this interview, for what they did well with this leadership transition?

Trent Stamp:
The first thing that they did, really, was I think they found a smart new leader. That sounds silly, but they found somebody who had been there for a while, who understood the program, but had gone through a bunch of external training and was qualified and ready to go to take over the organization. I believe they did an external search as well as an internal search, before they realized that they had the right person right there. So, that’s the simplest thing, and that sounds super dumb, but your succession planning will go better if you hire somebody who’s really smart. And they did that. They hired somebody who was really smart and who’s confident in her own abilities, and so she was ready to take over. But then I think they did a nice job of walking that line of, how much time does she need to learn from her predecessor, but then making that person get out the door at the right appointed time, not hanging around, “Okay, you’ve got this.”
And then, Eva, who was the person who was running the organization before Jenna took over, Eva made herself available, but she literally moved to Idaho. So, she wasn’t hanging around in any way whatsoever. She was one phone call or one text away, but she certainly wasn’t lurking in any way whatsoever, so that Jenna had to worry about her being in the building or even being in the same state. So, I thought that was nice, because it gave Jenna the chance to forge her own path and create the organization, while, of course, being respectful and receptive to the things that Eva had brought to the table previously.

Julie Lacouture:
Yeah. That’s some nice board leadership and action there to get that done.

Trent Stamp:
Yeah. Get her the training she needs. Hire the right person. And then get out of her way, but let her know that you’re there in the event that you need some.

Julie Lacouture:
Yeah. I think that’s a good question for boards to ask themselves too is, “What do we need to do to make this person successful? What is our role in that?” Because I don’t see that conversation happening and-

Trent Stamp:
No, and for board members, a lot of times, as humbling as this sounds, the thing that you need to do to support your new leader is to get out of their way. And people don’t want to do that. They think, “Oh well, this means that I have a new employee. I have to step up. I have to be there more often. We have to have weekly meetings. We have to have check-ins.” Ask yourself, are you doing something differently than you did with the previous person? And if so, why? And make sure you’re trusting that person as much as you trusted the previous person. It doesn’t mean that you don’t help out. A lot of times, what they need is the opportunity to make their own mistakes and forge their own path, without worrying that the chairman of the board is going to be harassing them on a regular basis, finding out what went right and what went wrong.

Julie Lacouture:
All right. Let’s take a listen to your conversation with Jenna.

Jenna Hauss:
My name is Jenna Hauss. I am the president and CEO at ONEgeneration. And, our mission is to enrich and support the lives of older adults, children and families, throughout our diverse communities.

Trent Stamp:
You got that down. That is spectacular elevator pitch. You are ready to go. You could fundraise nationwide. Jenna, one of the reasons that I wanted to talk to you is that, I’m very interested in the topic, which is that you took over the role of president and CEO, from a long-standing leader, Eva Goetz who we obviously knew very well. But, can you talk a little bit about that transition? What was it like to take over?

Jenna Hauss:
So my history within the organization is particular and special, I think, because I started off as an intern back in 2008, and was hired on as a case manager, and then sort of worked my way up through the organization. After I got my master’s, I left for a minute to get some clinical experience, and then was invited to come back to serve as the director of our senior center in case management program, which is primarily the area that I had most expertise in.
Once I came back, that’s when I started to work a little more closely with Eva, in the grant writing program development area. And, it took several years. Eva’s always been a very good planner. And, if you know her, she always had a succession plan in place. And, I was always thinking 2, 3, 4 years down the road. So, it took a little bit of convincing for Eva when she first brought it up to me, “Hey, I’m not going to be around forever. How would you feel about potentially stepping into my role?” And initially, fear struck me. I didn’t think at that point that I could possibly be capable of running an organization, let alone ONEgeneration. And I think after several conversations and leadership trainings and courses that I had taken, that my kind of aha moment came to me when I realized that, I would rather myself come into this role as a new leader, over somebody coming in who doesn’t understand the culture of our organization and doesn’t understand the potential future growth that our organization has, let alone all of that staffing, volunteers, programming, operations.
So that’s when I said, “Okay, let’s do this. However, I’m going to need some support, because this is my first time in an executive leader position.” And of course, she welcomed that opportunity and has been with me in my first year of transition as an advisor. And that’s something that I have truly valued and I think had allowed me to be successful in my first year.

Trent Stamp:
How did you feel when Eva said that she wanted you to be her successor?

Jenna Hauss:
I thought she was thinking about somebody else. I didn’t think that I had what it took at that time, because you think CEO president was somebody with years and years of experience and has a broad network of other leaders in the community. But, what Eva saw was a potential younger individual with leadership capabilities, and wanted to take me under her wing and allow me to grow from her position. At first, there’s a lot of denial and I’m like, “No, I think you need somebody else, somebody who’s a little more confident and experienced.” But I think, over time, she was able to coerce me a little bit more into making me believe. Yeah, it took a little bit of encouragement on my end.

Trent Stamp:
It was a great choice. How big is ONEgeneration now? How big’s your budget and how many people do you serve?

Jenna Hauss:
So, right now, we have an annual operating budget about $9 million. We serve roughly 8,000 to 9,000 individuals a year. Post-COVID, we have, right now, employed about 140 employees and roughly 200 or so active volunteers.

Trent Stamp:
I just want, people who are listening, to let that sink in a little bit. We’re talking about a $9 million a year organization, with 9,000 people being served and 140 employees, and the very capable leader who’s running it started off as their intern at some point. But that’s a spectacular story, so congratulations. What were some of the things that you did to prepare for that role?

Jenna Hauss:
Good question. I part took in a lot of different leadership courses. I was part of the Emerging Leaders cohort in Long Beach, for the Center for Nonprofit Partnership. That was a 12-month program. I believe that brought on Emerging Leaders in the community in Long Beach or the Los Angeles area, provided them with the different tools and mentors that they were going to need in order to move on to the next level, which at that point was going to be moving to an executive position. So, I had a year to prepare to get me more in the mindset of what it takes to be an executive leader.
And then obviously, working with Eva, week by week. We did a lot of our strategic planning and grant writing together, was more and more involved with our board at the time and our finance department. It was a year-long process, I would say, with the training, the direct training, in order for me to get to this position, which started in January of 2021.

Trent Stamp:
Right in the middle of a pandemic. No easier time to take over an organization of this size and scope. So, when you got the keys and you walked into the office, was there anything you wish that you had done during that year to get ready that you had not done?

Jenna Hauss:
I think that COVID was the worst and best thing that could have happened to me. Knowing that I was going to step into this role in January 2021, after having experienced a true challenging time within our organization, I thought nothing more is going to prepare me for this role than COVID. And, it’s true, because it could have been different where COVID had hit in 2022 or 2021. But, I was very fortunate to have been able to experience this pandemic in crisis alongside Eva and our executive leadership on our board, and kind of observed how they’re reacting, what decisions we’re making, and use that as a learning opportunity for me to move on and continue to push the organization forward.

Trent Stamp:
I think we have a tendency to talk about succession planning and resignations in a negative way, and we’re losing this great leader. And I do believe that at ONEgeneration, you did lose a really good leader. But, you’re in a different place now, and I think you have another really good leader running the organization. Can you talk a little bit about what you think the opportunities are for organizations, when they go through a leadership transition like this?

Jenna Hauss:
Well, I think that successful leadership transition, like you said, Trent, needs to start with a healthy succession plan that’s going to go back several years, whether you’re going to bring in an external candidate or somebody internally. Succession planning to me is also replacing key staff, not just executive leaderships, but our program directors who have been in the organization and are truly carrying the programs that we represent. And so, recognizing internally potential candidates that have leadership ability and giving them the tools and resources that they need, just like Eva did with me, putting me in a program or allowing me to complete a program that focuses on Emerging Leaders, same thing for our program staff too. So, as depressing as it might sound, so we don’t want to talk about our leaders leaving, it’s something that it’s critical, making sure that the organization’s going to stay strong and healthy for years to come.
Even though I’ve been here for a year, we have a succession plan already set. And it’s something that’s going to always evolve and change over the years. But, in my first year with the board, it was important that that standard was set right off the bat.

Trent Stamp:
That’s so interesting, because I do think that we think of succession planning as something you do when a leader is ending their career and reaching a certain age and time within the organization. But, you’re right. It’s something that successful organizations should do. Even when they have a brand new leader who they’re confident in and they’re excited by, you have to put the health of the organization first.

Jenna Hauss:
Absolutely.

Trent Stamp:
So, here on How We Run, let’s talk about how ONEgeneration runs. What do you think makes your team run well?

Jenna Hauss:
We’ve been around for almost 45 years now, and we provide services to older adults with disabilities, families, caregivers and children. Our programs, you’ll notice a common theme, that we encourage the use of community-based services. And we want to allow for our families and our seniors and children to stay as active and independent and engaged with the community for as long as possible. So, we have a wide variety of services, ranging from adult daycare to adult day health care for adults with cognitive impairments such as dementia or Alzheimer’s. And on that same site, we have a intergenerational shared site, childcare and preschool program, which is what we’re most known for, so children and older adults get to engage and interact throughout the day. So these older adults who live at home are able to come out, engage, socialize and participate in these intergenerational activities. Then we have a lot of other programs like home-based case management.
So with the whole kind of umbrella of services that we offer, what I think allows our organization to run well is, you’ll notice, that there’s a comment culture of our staff and volunteers and even board members, who, at one point or the other, have resonated with our mission and vision and programs, whether that be, we have a volunteer who is a former caregiver of a loved one, or a staff member who has custody of their grandchildren. They truly believe in our mission, and they believe in our programs, and they understand the value of it. So having that culture, right off the get go, of our staff and volunteers and how they resonate, that’s something that I think is a strength within our organization.
So, another part is the in depth involvement that we have with community partners, and utilizing those partnerships and collaborations to help meet the needs of our community at whatever that need is at that given point. Prior to COVID, the need of our community was completely different than what it was in 2020, and it’s different now. So being able to work with our community and establish these collaborations, and allowing us to understand what our programs need to do to change, to meet the needs of our community, I think also is a big component to what helps our organization run so well.

Trent Stamp:
I don’t believe that good cultures just happen. I think they have to be created and nurtured, and they have to be strategically planned for, and I suspect that you feel the same way. I’m curious. How do you build that kind of culture? And, more specifically, how do you build that culture among your board members? Because that’s a fundamentally different dynamic for staff.

Jenna Hauss:
I’m very fortunate to have started in this position, with a board who is 100% committed to the work that we do. And they’re very supportive and they’re helpful when we need them, and they will push back when they need to. But for the most part, our board went into their role as a board member, having full understanding of the work that we do and the impact we have on our community. So we are very selective when it comes to an individual who wants to potentially be on our board. There’s a pretty in depth process. We want to make sure that we’re selecting individuals that are a good representation of the work that we do and of our community. We have several board members who serve the community in a variety of different fashions, and we want to make sure that those board members are in alignment with the work and the programs that we’re doing.
Yes, the culture is definitely something that’s built over time, but when it comes to our board, there’s a pretty strict selection process that we go through, to make sure that it’s a good fit and not anybody can be a board member. As I’m assuming with other community-based organizations, we want to make sure that it’s like matchmaking. We want to make sure that it’s a good match. Somebody that’s going to, it’s going to be a mutually beneficial relationship.

Trent Stamp:
So I think that one of the things you’re saying there is that, far easier to rigorously select good board members who buy into the culture up front, than it is to take potentially people with deep pockets who may not buy into the culture completely on the back end. Identify them up front rather than try to train them, is that kind of a coarse way of saying that?

Jenna Hauss:
So, since I’ve only been in the position for a year, I was basically handed a very healthy, active, passionate board. I think it’s also, when it comes to future board development and potential board members, we have to stay true to our mission and our programs. And, even though a board member may, like you said, have deep pockets and have their own thoughts of how our program should run, at the end of the day, we have to stay mission-driven. And, it may sound like a good idea to start expanding programs one way, but at the end of the day, the decisions that we have to make need to ensure that it’s staying in alignment with what we’re doing, and having a board that agrees with that is definitely very helpful versus the opposite.

Trent Stamp:
Tell me something that you’ve done to adapt to the changing environment.

Jenna Hauss:
So, going back to listening to our community, prior to COVID, we provided a variety of different community-based services. And at the time, we had a small food bank where we were giving about 200 seniors food from our food bank a month, not a big deal. Once COVID hit, there was a huge demand from our case managers, our social workers, our community health workers to connect with our seniors in different ways other than our senior center. So we had this grand idea to start up a food bank, and it could be open to anybody that wanted it in the community.
This great idea turned into partnering with a lot of different local markets, getting over 250,000 pounds of food a month. That’s a lot of food. And we were feeding over 8,000 people a month. So it turned into this whole production, and we were getting a lot of interest from other partners that didn’t have a capacity to run a food bank like we did, whether it be a police station, homeless shelter, smaller food banks, HUD housing. So we decided to continue to build on that and then create a mobile food bank program. So now we have partners involved and we’re scaling out our services beyond what we could ever imagine.
And that was our theme for 2020 to even now is, let’s take the foundational work that we have, whether it’s case management, telephone reassurance calls, grocery shopping assistance, food bank, and let’s see how we can scale it out, but let’s do it with partners. Let’s bring in collaborators at different entities, so that way, our reach can be farther. And that’s what we’ve learned over this past year is that, we can only do so much as an organization, and the power of collaboration really can create a positive impact.

Trent Stamp:
I just love that you saw a need and you expanded, and you weren’t quite sure where it was going to go, but you knew you had people to serve. So, you should be commended for that. I know how modest you are. I know that you don’t like talking about your successes or the great things that you have done. So let’s flip it. Tell me about a mistake that you’ve made and what you learned from it.

Jenna Hauss:
It’s a tough question. More of a learning experience. I consider this first year, my training wheels year. I am still on my training [inaudible 00:24:25] and learning how to ride a bike, and any mistakes, if you want to call it that, is a learning experience for me. And I’m very fortunate to have, like I said, our previous CEO as my advisor. So she committed herself every day to being there. So when an issue came up, I could pick up the phone and call her and say, “Hey, I want to run this by you. This is what I’m thinking about doing. Am I in the right?” And it’s not like she’s telling me what to do or not, but definitely guiding me towards preventing any mistakes from happening. And not just her, but our entire executive team in our board too. They’ve been very supportive when they understand that this first year is my training wheels year.
I’m still learning how to ride the bike, but I would not necessarily say mistakes, but I’ve just had some learning opportunities, especially when it comes to understanding my boundaries and roles, to really hard going from a director that, on the front lines, providing direct services, to taking a step back and letting my team fill that role. In my mind, that concept sounds easy from, when it really happens in real life, it’s hard. It’s hard to let go when you have such a connection that you built with the community. So that’s been a learned experience for me, is being able to let go and trust my staff that they’re going to take over.

Trent Stamp:
You’re not alone there. That’s a common theme we’ve heard from many exceptional leaders, that they had to learn to let go and let their very talented people run the programs that they’re charged to run. So, I know much of your day is spent in the weeds of putting out fires and managing people, but what’s your big idea for moving forward? And how will you get there as you run one of the preeminent intergenerational organizations, certainly in Southern California?

Jenna Hauss:
Aside from expanding intergenerational programmings, to all types of community-based services, whether it be a faith-based institution, an afterschool program, a senior center, whatever it may be, we are always looking in our strategic plan to serve as that champion for intergenerational shared sites and expand the opportunities. And how small it can be or big it can be, we want to obviously be there to support those efforts.
But, I think another big idea, and this is just speaking of where we’ve been this past few years with COVID, I’ve been very fortunate to wear many hats within the organization. And with that, I’ve been able to view our operations and programming from various lenses and various perspectives. A common issue that I think most community-based organizations recognize are the side load systems of [inaudible 00:26:58] and how there needs to be more interconnection between the systems. So, we’ve recognized that need over the past several years, and we’ve taken various actions and steps. I’ll give you an example.
Our senior center, we often came across older adults who were at risk of becoming homeless or currently homeless. And as a senior center coordinator, a case manager, having the ability to connect with somebody in the housing field was very challenging. We don’t speak the same language. We don’t use the same systems. So referring somebody successfully was a challenge. And this is very similar for all the different systems, whether it’s healthcare, housing and homelessness, mental health, aging, developmental disabilities. So we’ve created several different collaborative work groups, whether it’s with aging and housing or aging and intellectual developmental disabilities, where we are consciously bringing these systems together to create these bridges between the silos.
And for our housing work group collaborative, we’ve been very successful, it’s been running for about two years now, where we have collaborations form between aging systems and housing and mental health, where we’re able to refer people directly. We’re learning how to use their intake forms. We’re gaining access to their referral databases, and we’re producing more successful referrals. That’s a big idea for me moving forward, personally.
My background is social work, and my immediate thought in my head is how can we refer? How can we connect the two? Because when you’re a senior, you don’t just need senior services. Oftentimes, you need healthcare services or mental health or housing, and we need to all work together to be able to produce some more successful outcomes. Along with everything else that we’re doing at ONEgeneration, our core programs, we really are also trying to look at how we can work better with the various systems and be more heard as a community-based organizations in the healthcare field and in housing and be more available, if that makes sense.

Trent Stamp:
Of course, it makes sense. And you are a social worker at heart. You could just tell, as you’re trying to figure out how to provide wraparound services and navigate something ridiculous, as the fact that two agencies have different forms for figuring out how best to provide services for people at risk, the kinds of things that those of us on the sidelines sit around and say, “Why can’t they just figure that out?” And then you get out there on the street and you realize that it’s more complicated than you think.
One of the things that I always do here is ask somebody what their number one tip is for someone in your position. And I think you’re in a unique position to answer this, because you’ve just gone through it as a new CEO for a large organization. If someone was taking over an organization like yours, tomorrow, what would be your number one tip for them for ensuring success for their organization?

Jenna Hauss:
I think two things. One, and even though I’ve been in this executive leadership role for a year, I have been serving as a supervisor and manager director for several years before that. And something that I’ve always learned, aside from never stop learning, but never stop teaching. Always make yourself available to the next generation of incoming leaders. I was very fortunate to have a healthy list of mentors and opportunities, that got me to where I am today. And, if we want to continue to produce positive community leaders down the road, and for years to come, it is our responsibility, as current leaders, to be available for them and to offer mentorship opportunities. Bring in an intern. Expose them to this field of nonprofit. So always make yourself available to, not only lead, but teach those incoming future leaders.
And then the other part of it, I guess I would say, is that your organization is only as strong as the community in which you are serving. Staying connected with your community, and making sure that your programs and services are relevant to whatever the need is at that time, is key. Our community, they’re our customers. And that’s something that we need to understand as a nonprofit, although it can be hard at times to seem like, oh, we’re providing services to the community. Without that community, we would not be here. So that’s something that I’m consistently educating students, interns, our volunteers, our staff, that we are there to support our community, and we are only as strong as they allow us to be. So, always keeping that in mind, that no person is never as more important than another, and then especially that applies to the community that we’re serving.

Trent Stamp:
Spectacular. Mentor, tutor, teach and listen to your customers. Great advice for anybody in any industry, no matter what.
Jenna, I want to thank you so much for being here today. I want to thank you for the good work that you’re doing out at ONEgeneration. And I really enjoyed our conversation, and I hope that I can get out and see your work in person, relatively soon.

Jenna Hauss:
I hope so. Thank you.

Julie Lacouture:
We have a request for you, dear listeners.

Trent Stamp:
I’m hoping that if you enjoy How We Run, that you will go and leave a review for us. Your review allows others to find us, and that’s a good thing, because the more people that listen, the more impact we can have on the sector and that we can bring about positive change for other not-for-profits that are out there. So, if you like what you’re listening to, please leave us a review.

Julie Lacouture: